Balto-Slavs in Magna Graecia
The two Balto-Slavic samples that I've mentioned earlier on this blog have been finally published in The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army:
Two individuals (I10943/W0396 and I10949/W0403; Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3) fall with modern northeastern European groups and eastern Baltic populations of the first millennium BCE and can be modeled using exclusively BA individuals from Lithuania as a proxy source (P = 0.129).
| I10943 | Mass grave 1&2 | 480 BCE battle | 764-516 calBCE (2475±20 BP, PSUAMS-4118) | Sicily, Himera | U5a1a1+152 | R-Y35* | R1a1a1b1a2b |
| I10949 | Mass grave 1&2 | 480 BCE battle | 751-413 calBCE (2450±20 BP, PSUAMS-4866) | Sicily, Himera | H1m | I-L233* | I2a1a(xI2a1a2) |
Y-DNA of one of them is typically Slavic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/
Or rather was, because now it will be surely called "Baltic", "Lusatian" or "Para-Balto-Slavic".
Comments
These mercenaries could be Thracian, which would confirm theories about Slavic/Baltic influences in Thracian military elites.
Xenophanes wrote: “The Ethiopians claim that their gods are flat-nosed and black-skinned; the Thracians, that they are blue-eyed and have blond hair.”
Thracian religion was similar to Slavic and Vedic. Orphism came to Greece from Thrace.
IIRC some Sicilian samples other than the ones from "Group 3" show minor "drift", but nothing spectacular. Unless there are newly sequenced individuals I haven't seen yet.
This would also explain why the Thracian language contains a dozen words that look like they were taken straight out of a Slavic language.
"One low-coverage individual, I17870/W0336, falls intermediate between Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 and Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3 on both PCA and with respect to the main ancestry clusters inferred from ADMIXTURE (Fig. 2)."
Can you ask Waldemar in the Slavic Chronology thread on AG to post the PCAs from Slovenia that he showed at night and deleted in the morning?
https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/index.php?topic=5215.msg100807#msg100807
Slovenia
https://i.postimg.cc/wgLwP5sS/Screenshot-20221006-000925-Zoom.jpg
Little Hungarian Plain
https://i.postimg.cc/R9ZrkZ1M/Screenshot-20221005-234620-Zoom.jpg
The cultural influence including the linguistic one is in the opposite direction from Thrace/Balkans to the Baltic. And it has always been so, including on the subject of the Christianization of all of Europe. And Yes, Orphism comes from Thrace, but Thrace is quite far from the Baltics geographically.
About "blond" Thacians: regardless of how illogical such a statement is, you continue to insist on blond Thracians.
The Thracians were never in their majority blond and therefore their depiction everywhere, including Thracian mounds, they are depicted with predominantly brown hair, as would be expected for a Pontic Mediterranean population.
The lie about blonde hair doesn't work for another very clear reason. According to Prof. F.Müller ξανθος (Griechisch Woordenboek, Den Haag, 1926), the word used by the Greeks in the past is a definition of the color of well cooked meat, i.e. brown.
What is today's meaning and interpretations in the translations of old texts is irrelevant. It is clear that in Thrace the anthropological type you mentioned is a minority and it is illogical to insist like this, given that we have images and they also support my position and of serious scientists.
The ancient Greeks were swarthy people with black hair, resembling the present-day population of North Africa. For them, light brown hair is unusually light. If Thracians were described as having light hair, the Greeks obviously meant lighter than their black hair.
The majority of the Thracians were neither red-haired nor blond, but with brown hair - exactly what is the most popular hair color even today in the Balkans.
In general, the attempt to equate Balts and Slavs and blur established boundaries in definitions, not only ethnic geographical, linguistic, historical ones is a modern forum absurdity, apparently instigated by EastPole-like types trying to appropriate a foreign identity because of their appetizing and rich ancient history.
Just to insert, according to historians, which nations have the habit of stealing/appropriating foreign history - these are the young nations. Look there in the Wikipedia you like a lot; what it says about when these northern countries were founded - 20-21 century - :Д and what is their contribution to Slavism and European history at all. I think if I say "0" I can't be wrong.
“This would also explain why the Thracian language contains a dozen words that look like they were taken straight out of a Slavic language.”
The same with Greek. There are plenty of Slavic words in Ancient Greek which probably entered Greece with Hyperborean/Thracian influences. We are very lucky that I10943 and I10949 got buried by Himerians in a common grave and not cremated as often happened with our elite warriors.
@Unknown
Linguistic and cultural/religious influences had following directions:
https://postimg.cc/B89FVHMH
and not the opposite. It can easily be proven by looking at the etymology of words and the origin of myths.
By ASSIMILATING this one: "In general, the attempt to equate Balts and Slavs and blur established boundaries in definitions, not only ethnic geographical, linguistic, historical ones is a modern forum absurdity, apparently instigated by EastPole-like types trying to appropriate a foreign identity because of their appetizing and rich ancient history."
Baltс is NOT equivalent to Slavs as you wish for convenience and never has been. The only connection of the Balts or Northern Europe with the Thracians and their culture is through cultural influence and lexical borrowings from the Thracians or later Slavs (W. Obermüller 1872); from South to North. That's why:
J. W. Donaldoson: Pelasgian language, as it appears in the oldest forms of certain Latin and Greek archaisms, was unquestionably most nearly allied to the Sclavonian
S.F. Dunlap: Thracians, Getae, Scythians..were so many links in a chain connecting Pelasgians with Media...Pelasgian was unquestionably most nearly related to Sclavonian
See a Baltic language or Balti mentioned somewhere?!
No one writes about Baltic when mentioning a connection even with Sanskrit, it is clear that the connection is found only because of the existing today lexical borrowings among the Balts from the Slavs, there is no other reason.
Baltic and Slavic are different languages with different origins and have no overlap except as indicated due to cultural influence, but that is clearly from South to North.
You also write funny nonsense about the sun, where did the sun cult come from (David's blog). For some blond Thracian elites. Where do you get such nonsense from?!
Naturally, they are not of northern origin. Here we are talking about practices related to farmers and seasons, the Sun Cult is important where there is abundant sun for agricultural crops. Not with the cold and dark north.
The mythological circle of the Hyperboreans also seems to know the ritual gesture of eiresione - according to the fragment preserved in Hesychius from Cratin's comedy Deliades, the Hyperboreans worship branches under the open sky.
All these circumstances suggest that the origin of eiresione, although edited by the ancient authors in the characteristic for the second half of the 5th century BC. Athenian patriotism and Athenocentrism, goes back to a more ancient Eastern Mediterranean festival circle with the epicenter of the cult of the solar Paleo-Balkan deity on the island of Delos. The ancient traditions of the amphictyony of the islanders, to which the Thracian tribes along the so-called "Hyperborean diagonal" also belong (Pindar., Olymp., 3, 16; 31; Pindar., Pyth ., 10, 29; Herodotus., 4, 13; 32 )."
The branch wrapped in white and red threads and decorated with fruit called eirisione / εἰρεσιόνη was not created by the Greeks.
Do you know what this description means - it's the martenitsa you smart!!!
"This tradition is related to the ancient pagan history of the Balkan Peninsula, related to all agricultural cults of nature...The eiresione itself was customarily worn on at least one of the festivals in honor of Apollo, modeled after the festivals of Dionysius."
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0
In original Xenophane’s text wrote πυρρούς (flame-coloured, yellowish-red, red), not ξανθος.
The possibility cannot be excluded that xanthe also may include “brown,” and the verb xanthizein is used for the color of fried fish. But that it did not always mean “brown,” but usually “yellow” or “golden” is clear from its use for gold itself, for ripe corn, for sandy soil, for the discoloration produced by jaundice, and for “white” wine, of which there are now all tints in Greece, from “hock” to “madeira.” It is the name of several rivers, and no one who has seen either the Lycian or the Mysian Xanthus in flood doubts that a pale sandy color is meant.
By xanthe Pindar meant description of a flower bank with “rays (spikes or petals) of xanthe and full purple”. Of the same flower, ion, the botanist Theophrastus mentions, after other varieties, “the white ion, and still more the flame-colored, and then the black, which needs care all the year round.” Etymologically ion is the equivalent of the Latin viola but it is not certain to what flower or flowers the Greek word ion was applied. But any flower which included white, flame-colored, and black varieties, - like pansy and iris, to name only familiar kinds - certainly included also all tints of cream and yellow, as well as full purple.
Returning now to the classical use of xanthizein, we find it employed for changing the natural color of the hair, and dyed hair is contrasted with hair that is of that color “by nature,” xanthophyes. Fortunately we can test this process, for the herb which was used, Xanthium strumarium, does actually turn human hair not brown but golden yellow, and is commonly used still as a yellow dye.
From Sir John Linton Myres - Who Were the Greeks?
With each translation, the text has changed, conveniently.
You write nonsense just to make something more out of an obvious lie. Repeating a lie does not make it true and the squealing insanity of you and others like you on the forums in a sick desire to connect with a piece of someone else's history and identity is already laughable to me.
The Thracians were never predominantly blond, because their habitat/geographical position does not suggest it. In addition, they have old settlements in Asia Minor suggesting even Middle Eastern connections, and there were, for example, of the Sea Peoples with the Levant and Egypt.
They were Pontids, Mediterraneans in the past and today, just like their direct descendants the Bulgarians. Even Renfrew
("Archaeology and Language") states very directly that Thracian is the closest to the language spoken in Bulgaria today. This is the logic of things and you cannot change it with parrot nonsense. Serious scholars such as Renfrew and F. Müller I have mentioned do not involve their names with such lies, but seek explanations for the inconsistencies that clearly arose from an unsuccessful translation at best. And here we are not talking about a mistake in the translation, but about a deliberate distortion of the truth in new editions.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26174-Stable-population-structure-in-Europe-since-the-Iron-Age-despite-high-mobility&p=883190&viewfull=1#post883190
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB53670 -
Patrilocality and hunter-gatherer-related ancestry in Middle Bronze Age East-Central Europe
The post-Neolithic demographic history of East-Central Europe, despite this region being on the confluence of various ecological zones and cultural entities is poorly explored. Here, the descendantsof societies associated with steppe pastoralists form Early Bronze Age (EBA 2400-1800 BC) were followed by Middle Bronze Age (MBA 1800-1200 BC) populations displaying unique characteristics. Particularly, the predominance of collective burials, the scale of which, was previously seen only in the Neolithic.
To study kinship of those MBA societies and to test whether the re-emergence of those old traditions was a result of genetic shift or social changes, we generated and analyzed 91 genomes from individuals associated with EBA and MBA from modern day Poland and Ukraine.
Our results indicate that while EBA people in East-Central Europe were most likely direct descendants of the preceding populations, the MBA populations were formed by an additional admixture event involving a population with relatively high proportions of genetic component associated with European hunter-gatherers.
Additionally, our data shows that MBA collective burials contained numerous individuals related to each other, and the prevalence of close kinship among adult male descendants over adult female suggests that patrilocality was dominating form of marriage arrangements in these societies." (ADAM MICKIEWICZ UNIVERSITY, POZNAN, POLAND )
Dna not yet uploaded unfortunately but a matter of time.
Old news to you guys I'm sure.
Thanks a lot! I knew about this project but the results are new to me. Or maybe not, because Davidski long time ago hinted that the BA samples are similar to modern day people in Poland, and only in the IA there are some unexpected results, or something like that...
Anyway, such result was expected. I'll make a new post tomorrow.
These samples with a high proportion of HG are grouped together with the Baltic BA, as is the Bk-II population from the work of Daniel Gerber. In fact, we've been discussing it for over a month now here:
https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/index.php?topic=5627.0
If the Iron Age population in (Northern? Western?) Ukraine became "blurred" by admixing with Scytho-Sarmatian or Finno-Ugric groups, then that might be an argument to consider against this area as the late Iron Age->Antiquity urheimat preceding a Slavic expansion (at least if this is interpreted to be a demic expansion). On the contrary, some arguments could apply for sites in (Eastern?) Poland, depending on the kind of "blurring" there. Very much dependent on what this paper (and perhaps more subsequent investigations reaching into the Iron Age) finds.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.03.478968v2.full
This will probably be what we call the "Balto-Slavic drift".
Distance: 3.9152% / 0.03915241
64.2 Baltic_EST_BA
35.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
Target: HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat_o1:I18241
Distance: 4.5941% / 0.04594050
61.0 Baltic_EST_BA
39.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
Target: HUN_MBA_Vatya_o:RISE479
Distance: 9.4297% / 0.09429718
57.4 Baltic_EST_BA
42.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
Target: HUN_Mako_EBA_o:I1502
Distance: 2.1969% / 0.02196859
52.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
47.4 Baltic_EST_BA
Target: HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG85
Distance: 2.4605% / 0.02460504
43.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
41.2 Baltic_EST_BA
10.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
4.8 ITA_Sicily_EBA
Target: HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG78
Distance: 2.6200% / 0.02619971
48.8 Baltic_EST_BA
48.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
1.8 ITA_Sicily_EBA
0.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
Target: HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG58
Distance: 2.6968% / 0.02696849
50.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
42.0 Baltic_EST_BA
4.4 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
2.4 MKD_BA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
Target: HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG34
Distance: 2.1607% / 0.02160711
41.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
41.2 Baltic_EST_BA
17.4 MKD_BA
Target: HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG06
Distance: 2.5129% / 0.02512910
51.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
41.2 Baltic_EST_BA
7.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Target: DEU_Tollense_BA:WEZ64
Distance: 3.8711% / 0.03871142
48.4 Baltic_EST_BA
38.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
13.0 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
Target: DEU_Tollense_BA:WEZ15
Distance: 3.0511% / 0.03051058
50.8 Baltic_EST_BA
38.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
8.8 NLD_LBA
1.0 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
https://imgur.com/imJspKv